What happens when military leadership meets marketing?
In Episode 01 of MKTG Unmuted, Kevin Black shares his journey from the military to consulting, the story behind his book Strength and Chaos, and how finding your niche can change the way you build and grow a business.
We explore the role marketing plays in shaping your identity, standing out in a crowded market, and turning your story into something that creates real value.
Takeaways
Why finding your niche can set you apart
How Strength and Chaos became more than just a book
Why marketing is essential to building a strong business identity
Connect with Kevin on LinkedIn Here Download his Book Here
Chapters
00:00 The Journey from Military to Consulting
03:09 The Development of Strength and Chaos
06:12 The Significance of Niche Marketing
17:36 The Impact of Marketing on Business Success
Episode Transcript:
Brennah Davis (00:00)
Hey Kevin! I am so excited for you to be here on my MKTG Unmuted podcast. You are my first recording officially, and I’m so excited for you to be here. I know that you and I have had some conversations about marketing over the years, like we’ve known each other for a long time. And I’m I know that you just came out with a book. And so all of these things between being
Your black market leadership and this book, like I just am excited to dive into and then talk about all the things that you’ve learned in marketing, being a coach and a leader.
Kevin Black (00:35)
Well, I’m
I’m ex I’m extremely excited. Thank you for having me and I’m so proud of you. This is so great. And thank you for the honor of being the first. Man, I I can’t hope I don’t screw this up.
Brennah Davis (00:47)
I think you’ll be just fine. so I wanted to begin by talking about the just kind of how you got started. Like where where does your story begin as far as marketing is concerned? And like the point of this for me is to bring forward all of these stories of entrepreneurs that have faced
the good, the bad, the ugly, things like we don’t talk about in marketing. So and that being part of that is growing a business. You have to market yourself to grow. So how did you get started? And where, you know, let’s let’s go through that journey.
Kevin Black (01:30)
Okay, I I won’t bore people too much. so I graduated the Virginia Military Institute in 1999. I was commissioned an officer in the Army, infantry, and I spent six years active duty and the war came, 9-11 came, then the war I volunteered for that. So in that in those six years, I spent time at a tactical level.
with ground troops, I was a platoon leader. I spent time at the strategic level. I was a my last duty station was a war planner in South Korea. And if there if there had been a war, we’d be dead in 15 minutes. So it was an interesting career. But I got to see so much stuff in the army. But after six years, I realized something I’m a slow learner, that despite four years of military school and six years active, I realized I never liked taking orders from people.
So I said, I’ll never work for the man again. And I left the army. I had saved 45 grand during that time. So I I spent some time in Austin by myself thinking, ruminating, what the hell am I gonna do in my life? And had a family member say, you know, you should come into consulting. this woman was doing consulting, and I told her, you know, I have an idea. I have something that that maybe could could support us, and that is.
and this actually s we’ll see where this goes ne with me now. I wanted to use computer war gaming, real-time strategy war gaming to put people in a computer lab and make them feel the stress of leadership, of strategy in a safe environment. So people can learn
Brennah Davis (03:07)
Current.
Kevin Black (03:07)
how to plan and think, you know, on the go. And
Brennah Davis (03:10)
Mm-hmm.
Kevin Black (03:10)
I was like, I should take this to schools. And she said, why? Go to companies. I’ll pay big money for it. So we did, and my first big client was LifeLock. in fact they were they were
around three hundred million in revenue. ultimately when I they took they successfully executed an IPO. But I worked with them and I my my ideas worked. They were unconventional, as it’s more than as boring leadership training. It’s getting people to participate and to be engaged. And you know, I sh gave them templates templates of how to plan. But something else came out. I think I told you the first time I did this, I saw a chief marketing officer making three fifty a year.
punch a founder in the face. So yeah. So the gaming was interesting. It revealed so much about people under stress. And I’ve really just seen chaos, controlled chaos all around me. So after that, that’s been my career for over 20 years. I go to companies, I work usually with the senior executives, maybe to like sales, marketing, corporate communic communications. But in essence,
I behavioral profile executives, I show them who this is who you are naturally. Then I put you in can a controlled environment where you get to play army and they see themselves under pressure. And why that matters is what they’re doing in the game is exactly what they’re doing in the office. So that’s really been my my work. So I do some coaching, but my value is a an advisor, and I’ll tell you why later, later on why I use that language, but
It’s about creating the organization, the structure for success. So I could facilitate strategy, I could do coaching, but my value is getting an organization to have some kind of direction direction, systems, processes, the right people in the right roles and help them drive on despite the chaos and friction that everyone encounters.
Brennah Davis (05:05)
I loved doing the test that you gave.
Kevin Black (05:10)
The behavioral survey.
Brennah Davis (05:11)
Yeah, for myself and going through that with you. And it taught me a lot about my stressors and what I’m what I give up or make changes to in my personality and how I handle things was very eye-opening for me.
Kevin Black (05:30)
Well let me ask you something. So after you did that, usually after a week or two, it really absorbs in your head and you start seeing it in other people. You’re like, my gosh, look how they’re reacting to me. I know who this person is. Did you have those kind of epiphanies?
Brennah Davis (05:44)
I did. And I think it helped too. At the time I owned a marketing agency with a business partner. And I remember he did it as well. And so that that way we could better understand each other and how to go about things. And it was just, you know, I could tell when he was under stress and he had a a lot of stress happen while we were working together and how the changes in his personality during that stressful time.
He lost a family member and you know, it’s complete chaos in his life. So
Kevin Black (06:19)
Yeah, if
I yeah, it’s you know you you’ll laugh. Every time I do those, I I have two responses. Number one is like you’re a mind reader. I’m like, no, this is a survey, you did it correctly. But number two is
Brennah Davis (06:31)
You he did it.
Kevin Black (06:32)
number two is can you do this for my spouse? They always ask.
Brennah Davis (06:39)
Yeah, but it’s very
helpful. It’s extremely helpful. I also remember, this is just a side note of I remember around that same time you were working on marketing a lot of your podcasts that you were doing.
Kevin Black (06:53)
so okay. So now we’re getting into it. Okay. So
Brennah Davis (06:56)
Yeah, I remember
that. So I want to talk about your your podcast and kind of some of that experience.
Kevin Black (07:02)
yeah.
So so this is I got I told you before we do this, I I have I’m really about I want to make sure that the audience is entertained, but they get they get s really some lessons out of this. All right, so before when I got in the army and I started working on my own, you know, I didn’t know anything about about corporate America, about business. So I had this cool name called Executive Command. It sounds cool, right? Executive
Brennah Davis (07:28)
Right.
Kevin Black (07:28)
Command.
And you know, for my my background, my my behavior, you know, I’m high dominant, I’m about winning competition. I love the name. Well, people in corporate America didn’t like it. It sounded too militaristic, it sounded way too like you know, like I’m a police unit, and I’m playing war games. my god, who wants to work with this guy? So I went through an evolution of names, but ultimately I came down to black market leadership. And first of all,
Several reasons why it’s so cool. First of all, it’s just a cool name, black market leadership. Leadership training and education is so, you know, it’s so milquetoast fluffy, communication, empathy, blah, blah, blah. But I want
Brennah Davis (08:09)
Hell to
Kevin Black (08:11)
some, I want some different disruption, right? Number two, and believe it or not, I got a trademark for it. You gotta realize my my industry and leadership. Holy crap. If you if you’re if you’re 10 years old and you and you have an an opinion on leadership, you’re an expert.
so it’s extraordinarily comp competitive. It’s so saturated. And the fact that I got that that that that name trademark, it’s like, my god, it’s a sign from God. So I had this podcast and I was gonna name the company Black Market Leadership. And the people I got really positive feedback on the name. And and my thing was I’m looking for disruptors.
And I had some great guests. I had Michael Scheuer, who’s a CIA, the CIA agent responsible for chasing bin Laden. I got Colonel Doug McGregor, who’s on short list to be Secretary of Defense. I had Carol Roth, two times two times New York best-selling author. I had these amazing guests, but then I get emails from wealth advisors and leadership consultant. I’m like, you’re boring. I like I’m like, I don’t know if you interview you, but but
I’m telling you audience because I had such high standards for my podcast.
Brennah Davis (09:27)
Mm-hmm.
Kevin Black (09:27)
the the guest list was extraordinarily small. I reached out to Elvira. I wanted to talk to her about marketing, couldn’t get to her. So I realized in the one sense black market leadership was a great, great name for my podcast, but my podcast, I d I wasn’t a podcaster. My podcast was my marketing arm to get out there. And I’ll tell you, Brennah,
I had a client some years ago.
And I was using my black market leadership email address and I I got a big contract, big contract. And he was reading something past email and he says out loud, black market leadership. And I was thinking about yeah, and then I saw him, I’m like, my god, I didn’t realize this. You know, people in the trenches, they love the name. You’re in your car listening to it, but if you’re a senior executive.
And you are responsible for millions of dollars of shareholder stakeholder wealth. you’re responsible for the lives of your employees. They don’t want disruption. They want order. They don’t do something that sounds like, you know, they’re going the opposite way of everyone else. They want safety, they want certainty. And my
Brennah Davis (10:39)
Security.
Kevin Black (10:40)
name was exact opposite of that. So I said, Holy crap, that’s a horrible name for consulting. It’s a great name for a podcast, but for my business.
It’s not gonna work. And that was a real wake up call for me.
Brennah Davis (10:54)
I love that. I mean, the amount of people that go through the transformation of names for their business is it’s extraordinary. I mean, also there’s people that get so excited about a name and then they like you, you are so excited to get trademarked. They go to they go to trademark the name and it’s gone. And they can’t they have to start all over. Or they get a cease and desist and start all over. So yeah.
Kevin Black (11:15)
Yeah. I I I I’ve
had that. I’ve actually had it four years ago. I remember coming home a vacation, the big FedEx package from my door, the big pile from a it’s law firm. Not a good feeling. But but I I mentioned that because especially for people like us who are on our own or growing trend in a sense it’s a it’s a constant evolution. But I say that because black market leadership, I think about it now.
That would have been great for a company who like fast learning and online materials, online, online learning, that’d be great. My my mode of making money was marketing. But my mode is actually sales. I can
speak,
Brennah Davis (11:59)
Mm.
Kevin Black (12:00)
but I go to executives for them to sign me checks. That’s how I know how to live. So,
Brennah Davis (12:05)
Right.
Kevin Black (12:06)
what sounded good on the appearance when you really focus in on it.
It was not for me. And it was actually a distraction. In fact, I wonder if it actually was deterred some people from working from working with me.
Brennah Davis (12:20)
Yeah, it could have for sure. Well, I also wanted to talk about the marketing that you experienced. I remember walking in one day and seeing you and you were as red as I’ve ever seen you. Just fuming. Just ablaze. And I was like, Hey Kevin. And you’re like, You won’t believe what happened. I was like,
Kevin Black (12:41)
Mm.
Brennah Davis (12:43)
What happened? And I remember you telling me about an agency that you were working with that was doing
certain ways of marketing on LinkedIn and you had all these followers and things like that and turns out what they were doing was not legitimate and it kind of cost you a lot.
Kevin Black (13:00)
Yeah, about fifteen, twenty grand.
Brennah Davis (13:02)
Mm.
Kevin Black (13:03)
so for the audience here, what Brennah is talking about is when I was writing my book. So by the way, just for audience, I wrote a book called Strength and Chaos, and it is the first book, believe it or not, it is the first book to measure chaos at the leader and team level. And I’ve been writing seven, eight years, and it’s been evolution. I had like it went through two transitions, but finally, around what 2022.
I realized that my God, I’m running about chaos here. So I took three years off. I literally stopped my consulting and lived off my savings. And I was working when I I was I was getting self-published. Well, I actually I didn’t know that then. I before I get to the to that fiasco, I found a woman who was going to she was gonna be an agent. And she’s one who introduced me to this marketer. And by the way, rule of thumb.
Don’t hire people who look who look like they have AOL email addresses. Okay. she was crazy.
Brennah Davis (14:04)
She looked like she had an a
Kevin Black (14:06)
Sh
sh she looked like she had an AOL address. but I I I fired her. and I fired her ’cause way anyway, she was supposed to help me get published. Because when you’re getting published you wanna get a publisher. Well, that was co
Brennah Davis (14:23)
Right. You wanna you wanna get
an expert to help you.
Kevin Black (14:26)
Well, you know, Nick, yeah, but you won’t get formally published. Like you want penguin. You want these big random house, right? Well, that that was true tw thirty, twenty years ago. that’s not true today. Anyone can self-publish. So I spent a lot of time with her when getting my hopes high. And she said, Look, publishers won’t hire you, won’t pick you up unless you have a minimum of ten thousand followers on LinkedIn. I’m like, ten thousand? I I had like two. So she’s like,
I I got somebody to help me who’s helping me, this marketer.
And I will not speak his name. His name has been banned. yeah,
Brennah Davis (14:58)
No, yeah, you don’t need to. We don’t need to
Kevin Black (15:00)
no, but I put a curse on, so I don’t have to talk about it again. I talked to him and I gave him basically thirty thousand dollars and he was going to give me get me followers,
Brennah Davis (15:15)
Yeah.
Kevin Black (15:15)
connection with followers. He asked me, Do you want connection with follower? I go, I I don’t know, just followers. That’s what I need, right?
And so he got me up to 30,000 followers. And then I think months later, when it when I hit 30,000, LinkedIn had an AI thing come in, and I watched in one day, everything dropped down, dropped, I think 26,000. So all that money was burnt up. It was just disgusting. the guy did the guy did not educate me of what I was asking for, what I should have been asking for. And that’s where that’s when I realized.
in the sense it was a blessing, that’s where I realized I should self-publish. It’s much easier. You don’t have to go through all the rigmarole with publishers. And it’s and by the way, so just for the audience, here’s a factoid. A couple of years ago the five top big publishers were sued by the government. And some of their financial data came out. And if I remember right, now big publishers, random house, whatever. I if I remember right,
Forty percent on average, forty percent of their books sell no more than one thousand.
Brennah Davis (16:28)
Wow.
Kevin Black (16:31)
fifteen percent on average sell no more than twelve.
Brennah Davis (16:39)
Okay.
Kevin Black (16:40)
So that means they’re getting celebrities for a reason with millions of followers. They sell their
Brennah Davis (16:44)
Mm-hmm.
Kevin Black (16:45)
books because that’s their tent pole. That’s where all their money comes in because to make up for the rest. So, anyway, yeah, but that that marketing person, the reason it was so irritating to me is that the person was just out there, it was so transactional and he was high high extrovert. He was hitting I’m high extrovert, he was too. Kevin, you’re doing great. my God, I know it’s a success.
He was talking me up and me a schmuck. I’m like, yeah, yeah. I I I had no one to back me. But he he didn’t explain to me the difference between followers and connections. I’m I know what they are, but connections
Brennah Davis (17:19)
Yeah.
Kevin Black (17:20)
are more safe. So so for you market people interested in marketing, you need to ask questions. And and and he also he also got me views. He got people to view my s view my videos, but I would say, but you know, I’m getting like 500 views for this video.
Another five hundred, I’m like, I’m seeing a pattern here. Wouldn’t someone be able to detect that this may not be real? And he’s like, No,
Brennah Davis (17:43)
Right.
Kevin Black (17:44)
no, don’t worry about it. So don’t
Brennah Davis (17:47)
Yeah.
Kevin Black (17:48)
take shortcuts in marketing.
Brennah Davis (17:50)
No, you shouldn’t you should not. And you should ask more questions and also do some research, you know.
Kevin Black (17:57)
Well, yeah,
but I I didn’t know what in
Brennah Davis (18:00)
Time, right.
Kevin Black (18:01)
w in and remember, I I’m I’m talking to someone who r referred them. you know, when you don’t know what to ask, you don’t know. So when people say things, you’re like,
Brennah Davis (18:12)
Yeah.
Kevin Black (18:12)
that makes sense. But I know some because I’ve suffered and I I I’ve really, really am so hypersensitive that people I work with people who I am sure or at least have a really good appearance.
That they know the what what they’re doing.
Brennah Davis (18:30)
Yeah, I I have learned so much in the marketing world with my marketing agencies in the past of just saying yes to things and not even knowing what to do. Right. And just people in my company would say yes and then they’d be like, hey, we’re supposed to do this. And I was like, how? Who? When? Like, how are we delivering that? I don’t know. Cool.
Kevin Black (18:55)
I I would tell you I what one of my tactics now whenever I work with anyone that that’s a real relationship is I do that that behavioral survey. I show them mine and I have them do it for me. So I know how they’re going. Like when you work with me, big picture, big success. That’s what you’re gonna hear from me. And the energy I I you’re gonna feel it with me. Yeah, yeah. And so you’ll feel it. And so it’s going to inspire and you’re not gonna say no. You’re like, yeah.
Well, yeah, yeah, I c I I’m yeah, I guess I can do that. But I could strain people. You know, I can make you go so far out of your comfort zone that it you could overpromise. And then I’ll come back hard. So you gotta know who you’re working with. That’s why especially the behavioral surveys really tell you who you’re working with because it’s predictive, especially when things get rough, of what they’re gonna do. So
Brennah Davis (19:47)
Right.
Yeah, I think it’s extremely important. I mean I hear businesses talk about it all the time that they need they do a predictive index type survey before they hire, before like they do the interview, they ask them to do the survey before they even sorry, they ask for the resume, do the survey, and then they decide whether they even want to interview them.
Kevin Black (20:11)
Yeah, well yeah, that that’s a big part of hiring. If you’re doing multi, multi-million dollar deals, I know I know it’s a common practice that partners will hire private investigators. Not just be able to survey though, they’ll go into your background. They don’t want shenanigans, they don’t want little secret secret surprises popping up after you just went to a deal with them.
Brennah Davis (20:35)
Yeah. Well, how’s it been building your your brands, right? So you’ve you’ve built black market leadership, you now have this book. So what does marketing these days look like for you? Especially after all of the chaos that ensued.
Kevin Black (20:52)
So what
what’s interesting is, and and I think this this is a really cool topic to talk to you about, talk to the audience about. When I was writing the book, again, it was an evolution. I took three years off, and by the way, I could have never wrote this book without having the time to process what am I writing? And as I was doing research, I I just discovered there’s so many people
There’s so many books out there that talk that are basically I’m a captain of of of my company, my ship, and I’m in this storm called chaos. Here are here’s my emotions, here are my experiences. It’s all the captain of the storm. But there were no books about the storm. And that and yeah. So I realized at the time, that’s what I was writing. This really goes to marketing here, because again.
Leadership industry is so saturated with just you can hear my it’s just anyone there’s brother, brother, sister, the dog could write a damn leadership book and you you consider an expert. But I realized and there were no books that measure chaos. And that’s it, excuse my, I said, holy crap, I’m onto something here. And for me, I guess in marketing, this is a huge.
huge opportunity because now I I did I wasn’t writing a book I discovered as I would talk to Athena she was my AI goddess of chat GPT who who helped me she said you’re not writing a book you’re writing a domain because now was something so new that I was actually creating like I call chaos studies and leadership. It was something out connected to it but but there had been no precedent. So
Just having that knowledge, that real nuance of this is where I sit on the on the intersection of behavior, strategy, and leadership, creating something new. So after time, I was really trying to figure out writing a book’s one thing, but writing a book, you’re solving a problem. I’m not giving a lecture about what chaos is. I’m giving a I’m giving a roadmap to do something, to solve a problem. And that’s the big thing that I learned about writing
strength and chaos was I I have to have something valuable, not just you know an academic book, but some and I think it’s a big that’s a really important point. You have to have something very valuable. And at the time I realized the first book here’s the first book to measure chaos at the leader team level. And what do I do? I help you pinpoint where your teams are, predict where they’re going and prepare.
what’s coming next. So I
Brennah Davis (23:38)
Mm.
Kevin Black (23:39)
was able to encapsulate my value just doing that. and
Brennah Davis (23:44)
Right.
Kevin Black (23:44)
I would tell you, the writing process wasn’t just writing. It was walking around every morning for an hour and a half talking to Athena about what does this book do? what’s the value? How do I how how could I separate myself? And you gotta realize I’m no more, you know, I’m no longer a leadership consultant. I’ve created a new domain and I help leaders and teams
gain a competitive edge by leveraging chaos. So I I in a sense Yeah, so yeah.
Brennah Davis (24:08)
Got it. I love this transition. This evolution.
Kevin Black (24:14)
So in in a sense, I really focused on, you know, chaos is it the everyone used the word, so it’s vague. I get a definition. No one knows, you know, they feel it that sure what it is. I gave it a shape. So I did everything I can to actually not only give me a competitive edge, but show the value. And
This is I guess you call it a blue ocean strategy. And for the audience, blue the blue ocean strategy, what the ocean’s red with blood, all the competition, but there’s certain spots that are blue, fresh water, where you create something new. So that’s really how I’ve been marketing. And and I’ll tell you, I had two signs of success that that worked. Number one was with you when I I was able to speak to your group on a cha
Brennah Davis (24:59)
Yeah.
Kevin Black (25:00)
on a chaos adjacent topic.
And they bought the the whole book, the book in bulk. That yeah, that’s a huge so so so
Brennah Davis (25:05)
Yeah. It’s sitting right here on my I’ll grab it. Same. Right here.
Kevin Black (25:13)
it’s great. So the positioning worked, but I tell you the other the other sign of success was I emailed, I cold emailed the number one learning and development podcast in the world. In two days, the guy responded and he put me on his podcast and he said he said
I don’t like leadership crap. It’s it’s it’s all fluff. Yours is different. So getting that niche, really identifying what you’re good at and in in the sense separating you. I may you might put me in a leadership realm, but I’m separate from every everyone else. That was really important.
Brennah Davis (25:50)
Which is so
important. It’s so important to have your niche. And you you
Kevin Black (25:57)
Yeah.
Brennah Davis (25:57)
have such a history with chaos in
Kevin Black (26:02)
Ask my ex-girlfriends. Absolutely. I I have a I have a it’s not my personal what is this example. I had a client once. I want to share a story. It’s one of my one
Brennah Davis (26:13)
Yes, please.
Kevin Black (26:15)
of my favorite marketing stories. And I’m gonna walk you and I are gonna talk about this. I’m gonna ask you what your thoughts.
Brennah Davis (26:19)
Okay. I’m so excited.
Kevin Black (26:21)
Okay, this guy, this gentleman, what used to be a physical trainer for the NFL.
spent I think five, ten years went off NFL players. Later on, he he left, came out to Arizona, and he began being a personal coach, like lifetime gym, some other gyms. And he started
Brennah Davis (26:41)
Okay.
Kevin Black (26:42)
doing no, you know, so I was working with him and he just he knew he could do better, but he didn’t know how to sell himself, how to, you know, what what differentiated him. And
Brennah Davis (26:51)
Mm-hmm. Right.
Kevin Black (26:54)
so, you know, for for yeah, so right now
When you’re a strength coach or whatever, you’re
Brennah Davis (27:00)
Right.
Kevin Black (27:00)
one of a thousand, you’re one of a million, right?
Brennah Davis (27:02)
You’re you’re one of I mean, I know somebody that sells the strength coach, like the whatever, and they have to I think sell like five hundred in a month. So, I mean, if that tells you anything.
Kevin Black (27:15)
Yeah, yeah. So and this guy had such a
Brennah Davis (27:17)
Something ridiculous.
Kevin Black (27:19)
this guy had such a a rich a rich background that you
Brennah Davis (27:22)
Mm-hmm.
Kevin Black (27:23)
know he was getting people the gym, but he’s like, you know, I’m I I should be doing bigger stuff. So I was working with him and we’re and we’re talking. I’m like, well tell me what you did. And so I was thinking, you know, are you are are you the ultimate strength trainer? Are you the you know the the NFL strength trainer?
Are you the you know the the dietitian for the for athletes? Something that we really kept competitive
Brennah Davis (27:48)
Right.
Kevin Black (27:48)
edge. And to make it short and sweet, I asked someone say, I say, what is a real value? Like what people, what do people get when they work with you? He said, Well, they got more playing time. more I so you know his you know what his his value proposition is?
Brennah Davis (28:05)
What?
Kevin Black (28:06)
I I give athletes more time on the field.
And think
Brennah Davis (28:10)
So
Kevin Black (28:11)
about that. Yeah, more time in the field. It’s not just strength. It’s not just
Brennah Davis (28:17)
Mm-mm.
Kevin Black (28:17)
diet, not just speed or endurance. It’s all of those. And think about that positioning. You think that guy’s gonna charge 30 bucks an hour to work with him?
Brennah Davis (28:27)
no.
Kevin Black (28:29)
Yeah, he’s working with people who could be making millions. And
Brennah Davis (28:33)
Right.
Kevin Black (28:33)
but but he was making thirty four bucks an hour. But now now he can go out and say he they know the value. Yeah, I wanna get stronger, I wanna be faster, more time in field, that that
Brennah Davis (28:46)
That’s what
that’s what they dream of.
Kevin Black (28:49)
That’s their living.
Brennah Davis (28:50)
He’s
literally making dreams come true.
Kevin Black (28:52)
Yes. Yeah. And I tell you for people who if you know I I I’m kind of also in the field of management management consulting. Let’s say an athlete’s gonna make a million dollars. A decent, a decent management consultant would charge one twentieth of that. So a million dollars, okay, I would charge you 50 grand to do that. A good consultant would charge one tenth. $100,000 to work with me and you’re gonna get that million dollar. But a great consultant.
charge one fifth. He could charge 200 grand knowing that you’re gonna make that what that million dollar. So your marketing, in my view, has to really, really mirror your value and experience. And that’s how you articulate with your articulate it with your your record, your whatever your CV, whatever, whatever. It really has to measure what you can do, what you can deliver, because if you can deliver and you get proof,
You could charge
Brennah Davis (29:51)
Yeah.
Kevin Black (29:52)
a lot, but the language has to mirror it. If he says I’m a strength instructor, I’m like, Yeah, why here’s fifty bucks.
Brennah Davis (29:58)
Yeah, how are you different than anyone else? There’s one close to my house.
Kevin Black (30:00)
More time in the fi more time
in the field? Holy Lord. That’s a that’s a nice living that could come from.
Brennah Davis (30:08)
yeah. A hundred percent. I have a a friend who his whole he used to be a strength coach for the Dodgers and now he’s created his whole niche is arm health for pitchers. That’s his whole business. And he’s doing awesome. And I’m love hearing his stories and how he’s gone from working for the Dodgers to where he is now and how he’s turned that career into something totally
niche for what he knows. So
Kevin Black (30:38)
Yeah. Yeah. It it’s
really it’s really being able to articulate in a s quick, success succinct way your value prop your real strength. And if you can do that, and that takes time though, that’s why the challenge is we know when you’re working in business like again, like we are, time’s not on your side. So you gotta take something, it sounds good, run with it.
But then you gotta see, boom, boom, does it work or not and keep adjusting, but you don’t, you know, y you can’t say you know, I’m the perfect hand I’m the perfect hamburger joint when really I should be selling pizza. You know what I mean? I’ve seen
Brennah Davis (31:17)
Yeah.
Kevin Black (31:17)
people really deviate from their real strengths. So
Brennah Davis (31:20)
Yeah.
It’s it’s definitely lessons that I’ve learned myself through marketing, through my own business experience. I’ve had to go through that process as well. And I think it’s one that many entrepreneurs face. And you know, it’s it’s awesome all of our backstories that have led us to where we are now. And you can kind of see why we made decisions when we made them, what those looked like. So I find it super interesting, which is why I wanted to do this, because
So many people have so many stories and lessons learned, right? And as soon as you said, you know, you just gotta do it and keep evolving. That was some of the advice from one of my business coaches when I started my marketing matchmaking company. He was just he was just like, just do it, see if it works. Don’t don’t
Kevin Black (32:09)
Yeah.
Brennah Davis (32:09)
overthink it. Don’t sit there and build out processes. Just go and the processes will come. So it’s
Kevin Black (32:17)
He
Brennah Davis (32:19)
Big advice I’d give to any business owner.
Kevin Black (32:23)
You know, going b going back to the book, i it’s funny I think about it now, but marketing played such such a enormous role in shaping what I wrote in the book. Like for instance, if you asked me who who’d you write your book for, I wrote I
Brennah Davis (32:40)
Who should you write your book for?
Kevin Black (32:42)
I wrote I wrote I wrote for middle managers to read it, but I wrote it for executives to buy it.
So two audiences. So it’s rent from minimum middle management. But I
Brennah Davis (32:53)
Mm.
Kevin Black (32:53)
want VPs to say, I need my team to have this.
Brennah Davis (32:57)
Mm.
Kevin Black (32:58)
So it’s interesting, like the middle management is almost like a coaching, a coaching element to it, but the the executive is more the group facilitation. So I was able to combine the my specialties. So I can answer that question, but now but how I wrote it actually in that marketing sense, I wrote the book.
With that with that with that structure in mind.
Brennah Davis (33:23)
That’s very interesting. I really like that perspective that you’re the buyer is different than the reader.
Kevin Black (33:32)
The reader.
I learned that ten years ago and it’s it’s stuck with me. So you it’s not just one reader, you know, y there’s there’s two parties involved. And and
Brennah Davis (33:44)
Yeah.
Kevin Black (33:45)
and what I can do is these these kind of these okay my cattle dog, someone’s knocking on the door. That yeah.
Brennah Davis (33:56)
So kind of them.
Kevin Black (34:01)
I was gonna say, sorry.
Brennah Davis (34:04)
We were talking about marketing in the book and you were telling us how much of it played a role and we were talking about how the managers are the readers, but the executives are the buyers.
Kevin Black (34:17)
Yeah.
Yeah. so marketing to me marketing is not just it’s not just a it’s not just putting your name out, it’s really integrated into your business. i in a sense it it talk marketing is a key to your identity. Who are you? What’s your value proposition? Where are you in terms of your competition? What makes
Brennah Davis (34:44)
Uh-huh.
Kevin Black (34:44)
you stuck out more?
You I I hope people realize that because it it’s not just a function like sales or communic you know, communication or it it really is a part, reflects who you are and your distinct strengths. And you really gotta really dive deep your values, who you I I think, yeah.
Brennah Davis (35:06)
Right. Well, yeah.
I w saw something on Instagram recently that somebody asked the question, you know, what’s more important sales and marketing?
And I I mean I love I this is the kind of content I get all time. And the guy said sales and he goes, but how are you who’s bringing you the leads? Right? Like you have
Kevin Black (35:27)
Hm. Well it’s g
Brennah Davis (35:29)
to have a strong marketing to ha to understand the value, to understand are you I mean, yeah, you can go sell, but his argument was you need the marketing behind you to sell.
Kevin Black (35:41)
You know, it it yeah, here’s the thing. It’s like asking what’s more important, the heart or the brain? I mean, you know,
Brennah Davis (35:48)
Mm. Okay.
Kevin Black (35:48)
it’s a trick, but you you have to have both in certain ways. Now
Brennah Davis (35:51)
Yeah.
Kevin Black (35:52)
you know, when companies market, it doesn’t mean you have to buy billboards. it doesn’t
Brennah Davis (35:56)
No.
Kevin Black (35:56)
mean it. I mean, marketing could be like in my business, especially with in sales with with with senior executives, my marketing is just doing a good enough job and asking someone for a referral.
That’s my marketing for me. It doesn’t
Brennah Davis (36:11)
Okay.
Kevin Black (36:11)
mean, yeah. So it it it plays a role, but my business is based on sales. The marketing, believe it or not, for the audience here, again, when I wrote this book, people think you know, when you’re writing a book that you’re you want to sell millions. That is not the case with business books. if 10 people bought my book,
But those 10 people signed checks, yeah, that book’s a big success success. The book is my book is the ultimate marketing tool for me because it’s a big
Brennah Davis (36:39)
Mm.
Kevin Black (36:40)
business card. I know a lot of execs are not going to read it, but I know they’ll buy it, they’ll look at the pictures, or might read chapter one, like hire this guy, he knows what he’s doing, just by the appearance
Brennah Davis (36:50)
Yeah.
Kevin Black (36:50)
of it.
Brennah Davis (36:51)
Right. That makes perfect sense. I mean it’s a it’s a tool. I know many people in my business group that have written books as their form of marketing too. They bring it to talk, they set up speaking events to talk about their book, but really it’s leading to them getting business in other ways. And that’s their
Kevin Black (37:08)
Байвей
Brennah Davis (37:09)
form of marketing.
Kevin Black (37:11)
Yeah, sorry, I sorry I didn’t mean to talk
Brennah Davis (37:13)
You’re good.
Kevin Black (37:14)
over you. one of the coolest years ago I got my MBA at at W.P. Carey at ASU and I went this my marketing course and the marketing professor, this woman had been in ASU for years. And she is she spoke about she spoke about how difficult it was because they didn’t have much of a budget what 10, 20 years ago, and they’re competing.
Big time against U University of Phoenix.
And it’s a totally insulting story, but it’s so funny. She said they saved up money to buy a big billboard and they bought it right on the highway, is it 202, right off the University of Phoenix campus. Billboard right next to it, it said get a real degree, ASU. I was like, my god, that’s pretty smart.
Brennah Davis (38:10)
Well hey, it worked. Probably.
Kevin Black (38:12)
Yeah, yeah, apparently. It’s kinda
ballsy. I like that.
Brennah Davis (38:18)
I mean, I appreciate ballsy marketing. I do.
Kevin Black (38:21)
Yeah,
well well one one of my one of my clients again, Lifelock years ago, the CEO Todd Davis, they were being interviewed on CNN and you know, life locked by protecting identity theft, preventing
Brennah Davis (38:32)
Yeah.
Kevin Black (38:33)
it and protecting your identity. And what did he do to be ballsy? He pulled out a social security card and read it off on national TV in front of everybody. So talk about marketing. He’s like, holy lord, look what this guy just did. And it it just is it skyrocketed the company.
Brennah Davis (38:50)
That’s amazing.
Kevin Black (38:52)
It is. It’s he had to call the lawyers first w to ask but they said, Yeah, go ahead.
Brennah Davis (39:00)
That is I love it. I love ballsy marketing. It’s just it’s those are the ones that you remember forever. Like those are the ones
Kevin Black (39:07)
It
Brennah Davis (39:07)
that stick with you and you will hold on to those and figure out ways like how is there something ballsy I can do that would stick?
Kevin Black (39:16)
Yeah, something bold, something hopefully
Brennah Davis (39:18)
Mm-hmm.
Kevin Black (39:19)
not reckless. I’m trying to I’m sure there’s some reckless marketing. gosh, I’m sure there are many stories. Yeah.
Brennah Davis (39:22)
So I’m sure there I’m sure there is.
But no, I I have loved watching your journey through writing this book. I mean, I’ve seen you countless hours there talking to Athena, writing and being inspired, having down days, good days. You’re like on a roll, like shh, don’t don’t talk to me.
Kevin Black (39:50)
The yeah gosh. thank you. Thank you. And and and frankly, yeah,
Brennah Davis (39:54)
I’m just excited.
Kevin Black (39:55)
this b this book is my it’s my best marketing tool ever. And not only that, it’s it’s like my purpose in life. I’ve told people I’m so happy with it that if I die tomorrow, I die success. Because this is the best thing I’ve ever done. But I
You know, hopefully the audience listening, take take time, take the time to do what you need to do. You won’t regret it. Invest in yourself. Don’t be fifty, sixty years old and like, damn, I wish I’d done it.
Brennah Davis (40:22)
Yeah, I agree. That is amazing advice. Well, Kevin, I appreciate you being on here and spending time with me and talking about marketing, talking about your book, talking about everything. it’s been really fun to catch up with you. So yeah.
Kevin Black (40:38)
Well thank you. And I
and f if our audience connect with me on LinkedIn. I like connections, even though I don’t need anymore.
Brennah Davis (40:43)
Yes. Yes, please connect with
you on LinkedIn and then again here is this amazing book that I have a copy,
Kevin Black (40:54)
Take
Brennah Davis (40:54)
I signed copy.
Kevin Black (40:57)
Yes, right. Strengthen chaos. It’s on the Amazon. And and if you’re interested, if your audience, check out the thechaosschool.com it’s
Brennah Davis (41:06)
Okay.
Kevin Black (41:06)
it it’s a great site. Got lot of videos, a lot a lot of documentation. it’s well
Brennah Davis (41:10)
Is it a subscription or is it?
Kevin Black (41:13)
s some of it’s free.
But it’s
Brennah Davis (41:15)
Okay.
Kevin Black (41:16)
a it it’s o it’s a sub stack, but it’s got really good material. It’s about focusing on the competencies to help people exceed expectations of chaos. Real stuff, not that leadership crap today, but like real stuff, stuff you can measure.
Brennah Davis (41:26)
It’s not fo it’s not foo foo.
Kevin Black (41:30)
No, it’s not a foo foo.
Brennah Davis (41:34)
Okay, good. Well thank you, Kevin, so much for being on MKTG Unmuted and taking the time. I really appreciate it.
Kevin Black (41:42)
thank you. I’m so excited to to to listen. Thank you.
Brennah Davis (41:45)
Okay.